In my big re-work of ‘Veins of the Earth’, I have begun looking at the systems used for generating the geography of the Veins, the large main routes, smaller areas, etc.
My plan isn’t to fundamentally change the methods from the first VotE, but to re-make them, to make the new versions more of a comprehensive generator, with a sequence of tools to systematically generate a large area, routes, cities, villages, trade routes etc.
Something else I would like to do in this version is gesture to or recommend alternate methods or other ways different people have tried to deal with this non-trivial problem of generating and mapping complex, large three-dimensional spaces underground.
 |
| From the first VotE. We won’t be using this layout as it belongs to Raggi but the general concept will likely be similar. |
My aim here isn’t to copy but to, in the spirit of a bibliography, directly point people towards alternative possibilities. (I am also planning on doing this with monsters so people can put together their own encounter charts).
So far the only other book I’m intimately familiar with which deals with this specific problem, is Douglas Niles Dungeoneers Survival Guide, which has a neat but somewhat challenging method for isometric mapping.
What other books or works, or even posts, are people familiar with that deal with, specifically; generating and mapping large pseudo-natural underground spaces?
(I know there are a million methods of dungeon and mega-dungeon design, that’s not what I am talking about here.)
"In the Shadow of Mount Rotten" has a system for procedural generation of small cave systems that differentiates between lava tubes and limestone caves (and maybe others...I haven't looked at it in a while). It's not a *great* system, but it may be worth checking out for ideas. It's less than $5 on Drivethrurpg right now.
ReplyDeleteThanks dude I will take a look
DeleteReach of the Roach God has an interesting system that is basically 'fling down some toys, trace the outline of the pile that results, adapt to become your cave-system'.
ReplyDeleteI always loved In Corpathiums drop-tons-of-dice city generator - seems ripe for adaptation to the underworld.
They are both on my list, I will re-read each.
Deletenot quite what you asked for, but a couple of years ago I've tried to implement a script that generates undergrounds based on the rules from the VotE book. I couldn't make the rivers look quite natural (it mostly look like a bunch of quarter-circles glued together), but it was a fun experiment.
ReplyDeleteI've also tried to look at programs that geologists use to map real karstic caves, but they all looked both very complex and uninspiring at the tables. I did see a dataset of water flow rates in one system (I think in Ireland?) which was cool, but wasn't a map
Yes accurate cave mapping is fascinating but probably too complex and small scale for what I need right now.
DeleteAdvanced Fighting Fantasy does the dice drop in a box with a piece of A4 and note the results for generating dungeons, cities, wilderness, demonic planes, galaxies and systems, and it seems to generate good results. :-)
ReplyDeletepatrick my most successful veins world map was just a hex map. Basically the OG veins system without the quadrants. Used different colored marks for different intersecting terrain types, with notes indicating verticality as needed. The Quadrants thing was unnecessary.
ReplyDeleteWouldn't it be better to just keep the up- and down- (z-) direction properly accounted in the hexmap and abstract the movement in the x- and y-directions? Verticality is more a more important fact, but orienting oneself inside caves, especially if you are also moving up and down, it is extremely difficult. Even with a compass it would be impossible to find a second path to the same location. Compass only works because we have a surface below us. Thefore, it is better if the hexmap does not represent a flat surface in the underdeep (or cave system). Get rid of N-S and W-E, only assume that the characters are getting lost in caves.
ReplyDeleteAnother option is to abandon the hexmap and use a graph system. Have a look on pictures made by OpenPNM. It is a python library to analyse porous structures, such as the space between grains of soil. Scientists run CT scans of soil samples, which are recorded as a tesselation of cubes. Some are soil, some re air. OpenPNM can simplify the topology in a graph, where the pores are nodes and the throats connecting the pores are lines. Although the graph can be represented 3D, it can also be flattened and represented in 2D. I guess what matters most is the paths that connect nodes (points of interest). Pathcrawl rathern than hexcrawl.
ReplyDeleteThere is no best choice. There is a compromise between detail and abstraction with each of them. The tool should help the DM, but the players don't need to see it.
═(:ᴈ)
ReplyDelete