tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4522018539311056682.post703138407182237808..comments2024-03-27T01:28:28.346-07:00Comments on False Machine: OSR Witchfinderpjamesstuarthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13288777018721199748noreply@blogger.comBlogger48125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4522018539311056682.post-22632576047354325122018-11-29T12:42:00.693-08:002018-11-29T12:42:00.693-08:00I don't know people who play storygames, but I...I don't know people who play storygames, but I have read some storygame manuals and they are abviously written by bland guys who want to be loved and desperately need to demonstrate how nice they are, and I only want to kick their balls. Even the guys who write the PbtA Kult are bland, nice guys and fucking annoying!<br /><br />They all are Powered by the Baker Personality Template: a nice guys with progressive views but a hypocrite and a coward.Jorge Jaramillo Villarruelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09173856214194315781noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4522018539311056682.post-79471231992990957262018-08-26T09:16:25.278-07:002018-08-26T09:16:25.278-07:00I had a long, clever late to the party reponse her...I had a long, clever late to the party reponse here, and clicked the wrong button and threw it away. Oh well. Short version:<br /><br />Stakes are different in storygames, and those stakes can often hit harder than the relatively benign "Sorry, you're out of hitpoints so you're dead.". When you murder your whole family because you feel like they betrayed you and everything you stand for, that can hit a lot harder than running out of hitpoints in a battle with some skeletons. A lot storygames are deliberately going into spaces people might find emotionally uncomfortable, and this is a large part of where the lines and veils and xcard stuff comes from.<br /><br />So no, I don't think these games are necessarily more emotionally "agreeable" but rather that often they need to provide an emotional safety net in a way that standard dungeon fantasy games do not.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02307108400734292476noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4522018539311056682.post-86544499302540460702018-08-10T23:34:11.772-07:002018-08-10T23:34:11.772-07:00I've been jokingly called a 'born again...I've been jokingly called a 'born again' type of OSR fan and my old/bad(?) tastes shine through since generally I quite like taking materials from decidedly non-OSR games and adapting the ideas for something well suited to slightly more sandbox-ey to very sandbox-ey.<br /><br />Partially because, when the writers don't have their heads so far up their ass they can smell their own neck, many younger RPG have either amazing settings or horrible settings with good ideas which deserve a better chance.Bob Somethinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13638406211956979341noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4522018539311056682.post-1055173742890331612018-08-10T23:28:35.062-07:002018-08-10T23:28:35.062-07:00Having ran in the past extremely roleplay-heavy, c...Having ran in the past extremely roleplay-heavy, character-based games I can safely say that as with any 'story-heavy' element it is a double edged sword. With an excellent player and an equally excellent group these characters can drive entire campaigns.<br /><br />Unfortunately their implied plot armor can more often than not make tension moot.Bob Somethinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13638406211956979341noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4522018539311056682.post-27785955676969815302018-08-10T23:26:21.921-07:002018-08-10T23:26:21.921-07:00To me the damning thing about 'storygames'...To me the damning thing about 'storygames' is that, after a brief honeymoon period with the idea, there never really seemed to me like there was any coherent and tangible....hmmm how to put it....functionality? FATE was something I tried to read but after sleepless nights and headaches it seemed as if the damn thing might as well be Chinese backward.<br /><br />The mistake I made was to assume storygames would address my issues which plagued the then-current tabletop groups. Ultimately storygames were not the cure I was promised and with the most vocal supporters of storygame being people I increasingly disagreed with meant there wasn't really any appeal left to it. It all seemed like incoherent, self-wanking hogwash. Like the same bad D&D 3e games but with less 'build' obsession.<br /><br />Retroclones, who went back to the roots of RPG answered my questions. The answer was simple: the games I were running weren't working because people had forgotten many core tenent which, even more damning, had not even been taught to me when I got into RPG. People like me were being lied to that older RPG were these boring grindfest ran by tyrannical DM who murdered 6d10 player characters per dungeon. People like me and those who came after me had been misled: was it willingly? Or was it just because my generation got into RPG without any continuation from past generations?Bob Somethinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13638406211956979341noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4522018539311056682.post-31722547354606905702018-08-07T22:39:28.790-07:002018-08-07T22:39:28.790-07:00I have similar experiences as Emmy. I've found...I have similar experiences as Emmy. I've found that this blog post makes a good job describing where to limit player influence over the narrative: http://mightyatom.blogspot.com/2010/10/apocalypse-world-crossing-line.htmlLukashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04446892406199986114noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4522018539311056682.post-45127250567934812522018-08-06T20:17:53.573-07:002018-08-06T20:17:53.573-07:00I agree with the list apart from the last two. Nev...I agree with the list apart from the last two. Never heard of the forge. Well done.Psikerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02744089998921613315noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4522018539311056682.post-38168191525530250702018-08-05T03:40:23.466-07:002018-08-05T03:40:23.466-07:00You list several independent parameters, most of w...You list several independent parameters, most of which are a matter of degree (like, the amount of "narrative control" is very different in Apocalypse World and Fiasco). Just another illustration of the simple fact that "storygame" is not a useful term.Dmitry Gerasimovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04870509986491401701noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4522018539311056682.post-69535369044668748122018-08-02T20:55:46.717-07:002018-08-02T20:55:46.717-07:00Well put. The latest post on Goblin Punch seems re...Well put. The latest post on Goblin Punch seems relevant; it touches on player agency and informed consent in a very OSR context. http://goblinpunch.blogspot.com/2018/07/youre-doing-surprise-rounds-wrong.htmlPhasma Felishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09396514374223444608noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4522018539311056682.post-30252342723961068432018-08-02T20:52:32.290-07:002018-08-02T20:52:32.290-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.Phasma Felishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09396514374223444608noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4522018539311056682.post-60792423793384292102018-07-31T10:40:18.958-07:002018-07-31T10:40:18.958-07:00I really hesitate to enter this - b/c I may misund...I really hesitate to enter this - b/c I may misunderstand the dichotomy and I am not a game designer or wannabe game designer...but I often feel like the OSR has an implicit Dogma 95 quality to it and that the distinction between storygame and OSR flows out of adherence to the OSR version of the Vow of Chastity that the filmmakers made. It feels more important to the director/game designer than the audience/players.<br /><br />For me the storygame/OSR split as experienced at the table feels like a function of GMing more than system. I think. (at least this feels true for the ones I play - I've never played Burning Wheel). And I kind of think both tendencies are at present when I play...as a GM at least. So I do include strong narrative direction (railroadishness) in the games I GM, and that narrative direction does sometimes bend the world around the PC's. And there is usually underlying mystery and nuance in the game world that the Players slowly uncover as in CofC. <br /><br />Even more storygamey I allow the players some narrative "yes and..." style power. If they describe something they do well then it pretty much succeeds a la the rule of cool. <br /><br />But these things (narrative village/world saving stories and players stunts) are not common in the games I run which mostly are more open ended sandboxish treasure hunts. Nevertheless the meta plots I run make the world feel deeper, and the player stunting or player background statements feel like they make the whole mileau of play more vibrant. <br /><br />Drewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08057182508701974364noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4522018539311056682.post-47372802508370754912018-07-30T23:04:50.545-07:002018-07-30T23:04:50.545-07:00My experience with apoc-world systems is that they...My experience with apoc-world systems is that they aren't actually all that story-focussed. The underlying assumptions are much closer to the OSR assumptions than people think.<br />They have some ideas in common with the 'storygame' blob, and their player bases overlap, but mechanically... ehh.Cavegirlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03853637517886592288noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4522018539311056682.post-85657132567579519042018-07-30T22:07:36.004-07:002018-07-30T22:07:36.004-07:00The thing that I find most strange about the story...The thing that I find most strange about the story games/trad games split is how some people on both sides get super emotional about the other one, insist that it's ruining gaming somehow, etc. It's like XBox vs. PlayStation for erudite tabletop nerds.Phasma Felishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07040805980444135697noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4522018539311056682.post-71371802296864974462018-07-30T21:28:23.139-07:002018-07-30T21:28:23.139-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.Phasma Felishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07040805980444135697noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4522018539311056682.post-83635508281547754822018-07-30T18:57:59.281-07:002018-07-30T18:57:59.281-07:00Holy shit this post turned crazy fast.Holy shit this post turned crazy fast.1d12 false flagshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14019213420256072464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4522018539311056682.post-65312010486130003242018-07-30T14:59:37.399-07:002018-07-30T14:59:37.399-07:00Interesting that you bring it up, because I think ...Interesting that you bring it up, because I think OSR games are extremely punishing, and sometimes seemingly for no particular reason, too!<br /><br />Most of the things in an adventure that you can interact with will or the very least tries to harm you as a player. And dungeon explorations, for exactly this reason, can sometimes feel sluggish, unless the players are willing to take more risks and play a little recklessly.Ynas Midgardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14972628887096890642noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4522018539311056682.post-30346297829474081032018-07-30T14:03:25.386-07:002018-07-30T14:03:25.386-07:00I think this part is interesting, and don't ne...I think this part is interesting, and don't necessarily agree: "The players have to be protected from power abuses and that protection must come though explicit rules that make it almost impossible for the GM to be 'abusive' (however the designer defines that) if they are running by the written rules."<br /><br />Many "trad" games such as D&D have many rules around how interactions should work (combat, skill checks) that explicitly protect the players from the GM, rules-wise.<br /><br />OSR has the "rulings not rules" mantra, which subverts this, but many of the games you'd define as storygames also allow the GM much of the controls. In Dungeon World, if a player tries to climb a tall cliff or succumbs to an opponent trying to slash their throat, and rolls a 6-, it could be that next they are rolling for the black gates (effectively a death save), hit points be damned. This is entirely up to the GM as far as how hard and how fast death comes, without reference to a set of codified rules.<br /><br />Many of the rules are based on "trust" at the table, which is just a sort of "rulings" that everyone believes will be made in good faith. I find many of the lines between OSR and storygames extremely blurry, and I venture that most players and GMs wouldn't even be aware of these distinct categories if it wasn't for external forces driving their definition games.<br /><br />(But hey, we're humans, and I guess that's what we do.)Tomeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09945591307576136142noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4522018539311056682.post-63589801240112421102018-07-30T13:17:51.750-07:002018-07-30T13:17:51.750-07:00Fiction and Grind fits my experience with Blades i...Fiction and Grind fits my experience with Blades in the Dark very well.<br /><br />The progression rules-as-written in that game is painfully slow and the consequences of failure so dire that it encourages slow, safe play.<br /><br />I haven't played and Burning Wheel derivatives so maybe I'm completely off the mark for what you meant the category to be.Wizardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10185681391255559596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4522018539311056682.post-73886798015913287762018-07-30T13:13:24.013-07:002018-07-30T13:13:24.013-07:00Having played Blades in the Dark for a number of s...Having played Blades in the Dark for a number of sessions (and about 25 total hours) my opinion on it has gradually shifted from viewing it as a true intermediary between storygaming and OSR and more of a slight divergence from storygaming. <br /><br />Others have covered some of their main issues with storygames elsewhere in the thread, and I feel that a few of these, which are directly in opposition to OSR, hold true for Blades. Mainly 2 things.<br /><br />1. From Scrap's post above, the resolution system has the same adversarial tone as most storygames. You were doing the thing, you failed, even though you initiated the thing something bad happens to you as a result of failing. There's may be no initiative on the part of the adversaries to harm you but instead your failure results in it, which can often feel like punishment. I feel that this goes hand in hand with Blades' primary way of dealing damage to the players, Wounds. Wounds are incredibly easy to get and the effects of minor ones can be very bad. And they're quite hard to get rid of. Overall it feels almost unfair when your one, often not that risky move results in a debilitating multi-session injury.<br /><br />2. As Mangelune said above, success can often feel too easy. If you prepare well, it's hard to fail as long as you're doing things that are mostly logical and make sense. Tie this in with the face that enemies don't really logically have any way of scaling without breaking the game rules and things get very samey very fast. You have to purposely put yourselves in risky situations to fail oftentimes. And as above, because of how lasting the consequences are, the game discourages that heavily.<br /><br />As a result the game gets samey and boring (and the progression is really slow but I digress) and even though I loved it to begin with, after some time, I honestly don't believe it's different enough from other PbtA games to make me stick with it. Maybe someone else will find that happy medium.Wizardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10185681391255559596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4522018539311056682.post-24070961114794733462018-07-30T11:12:39.446-07:002018-07-30T11:12:39.446-07:00I like these categories. They are consistent with ...I like these categories. They are consistent with my experience as a player and with my understanding of the people involved and the the flows of influence through their design.Rob Alexanderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06382136438003995340noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4522018539311056682.post-39380245690766081162018-07-30T09:09:39.364-07:002018-07-30T09:09:39.364-07:00I think what I am trying to say is that "This...I think what I am trying to say is that "This is what we are about" can be, or feel, very different to "This is what we usually do".pjamesstuarthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13288777018721199748noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4522018539311056682.post-71857142760585904352018-07-30T09:08:51.538-07:002018-07-30T09:08:51.538-07:00'Unofficially' would seem to be the key di...'Unofficially' would seem to be the key difference between a culture propounded *as* a culture and a culture that a bunch of people that hang out together happen to exhibit, most of the time.pjamesstuarthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13288777018721199748noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4522018539311056682.post-64696301968774587332018-07-30T08:55:16.675-07:002018-07-30T08:55:16.675-07:00Could you tell me more about 'Fiction and Grin...Could you tell me more about 'Fiction and Grind' and what that means?pjamesstuarthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13288777018721199748noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4522018539311056682.post-76892955456322135362018-07-29T14:29:12.876-07:002018-07-29T14:29:12.876-07:00Actually I like considering how much of a game it ...Actually I like considering how much of a <i>game</i> it is that you are playing. If the game is essentially an adversarial contest (either against other players [directly or indirectly] or against a challenge set by the gamemaster) then it is probably not a story game. This doesn't mean that stories can't develop out of it the actions, but they generally won't have a good structure. They are often tales of what the <i>players</i> did, rather than what their <i>characters'</i> did.<br /><br />Some rules [note that game and rules are two different things - you can often play may different games with the same set of rules] support this sort of play better than others. For example in the early days of D&D it was not uncommon to find people boasting of the level of their characters - a form of indirect competition between players.<br /><br />These games also tend to have settings that are player independent - they can be set up as sandboxes in which the characters will play without any reference to the characters themselves.<br /><br />On the other hand when there is a more cooperative approach (especially between player and gamemsaters) then the obstacles in the game serve a different purpose than being things that must be defeated or overcome. Instead they serve as challenges to the character and the important aspect is how they deal with that challenge, not whether they succeed or fail. [And failure is often good because it can teach us more about the character than success can, which is something a lot of self-professed story games tend to forget.] The tales they tend to create are expressly designed to be the tales of the characters.<br /><br />These games often incorporate direct feedback mechanisms that change the campaign world/setting in response to the events in the game play. In a trad game this would only happen due to the direct actions of the character. <br /><br />The matter is often complicated by the fact that many adventures are linear in nature with a distinct beginning (the players discover there is a problem) and an end (the players defeat the problem). You could consider it a story that the gamemaster wants to tell (and sometimes will insist on it). But this actually is more in line with the traditional approach. There is even an explicit win condition (they defeat the Big Bad). Even games that attempt to emulate an authorial narrative beat structure still are very traditional in this regard - the objective is still to get to the end of the planned story.<br /><br />On the other hand in a story game the adventure is much more mutable and would change according to the actions of the character within it. Only when the characters are actually "ready" would the specific denouement occur. [Although it is possible that this will never happen.]Reverance Pavanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01217657347160811310noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4522018539311056682.post-4776171243645756772018-07-29T12:52:46.405-07:002018-07-29T12:52:46.405-07:00I agree with most of the ideas here. Though I ten...I agree with most of the ideas here. Though I tend to think of it as a little more of a continuum than on/off setting. A couple of edge cases here:<br /><br /><br />CHARACTER BASED<br /><br />I think there can be two elements at play here which can be involved to different degrees:<br /><br />1) Your Character (!) as a key element around which a story warps itself. Implies a strongly bendy world, with your character as the fulcrum and you (sort of the unmoved mover) pulling the levers. This is strongly storygamey by my lights.<br /><br />2) Your character as someone with different abilities than you. Of course all games tend to have this to some extent. But aside from fighting and magic, OSR mindset often leans toward player ability rather than character ability for problem solving.<br /><br />That said, I don't think the mindset of, "I can't do it, but my character can," when it comes to, say, social rolls, necessarily shifts the slider way up toward the storygame end of things. It doesn't necessarily give the player out-of-character control over the situation, imbue the character's existence with greater meaning, or make them immune to casual death.<br /><br /><br />BENDY WORLDS & NARRATIVE CONTROL<br /><br />Depending on what direction these are taken in, I can see some middle ground here as well:<br /><br />* A rare few games posit a world where the PCs do actually influence the nature of reality on a fundamental level in certain situations. In this instance, the world is bendy and player narrative control is strong, though maybe not in the 'behind the scenes' sense. This I don't really feel is storygamish, since, despite the fact that the player might be directly inserting narrative elements into the universe, they are doing it through in-setting character abilities.<br /><br />* Also, tying into the aspect of 'character abilities ≠ player abilities', there's the idea of player foresight being worse than character foresight. This is sometimes handled through spending of resource points, or rolling against skills to see if you brought the right object, called the right guy before hand, etc.<br /><br />These kinds of elements are a nod toward storygaming. But I feel that, on their own, they don't necessarily shift player focus away from the character-perspective enough to really make it a full on storygame.<br /><br /><br />AGREEABLENESS<br /><br />I tend to agree about agreeableness as it pertains to *proponents* of storygames. <br /><br />But, anecdotally, I find a lot of players of non-storygames end up unofficially promoting these traits, at least during play. Otherwise they're often viewed as jerks and either grudgingly tolerated or not asked back.<br /><br />I know I'm not a big fan of storygames for various reasons related to problem solving and the so-called "immersion" issue; but I really like it when all the PCs in a non-storygame have reasons to avoid mutual antagonism and all the players are considerate of each others' preferences.Peter K.https://www.blogger.com/profile/17181421723646836427noreply@blogger.com