tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4522018539311056682.post4977028815842005686..comments2024-03-27T01:28:28.346-07:00Comments on False Machine: What does and doesn't count as "Gatekeeping" to you?pjamesstuarthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13288777018721199748noreply@blogger.comBlogger44125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4522018539311056682.post-7502292856091837072019-10-31T05:52:26.480-07:002019-10-31T05:52:26.480-07:00Recently visited a peer of mine and we both agreed...Recently visited a peer of mine and we both agreed that we felt disconnected from our own culture, despite the fact that the modern age has co-opted so many of the edge-hobbies of our youth. It's probably a natural part of aging---but that doesn't make it any less weird. We've seen so many things repeated in cycles that the "new" doesn't seem so shiny-new, and "trending" often feels like a re-hashed hype-machine trying to get our attention and money, and "better" seems more like different-but-the-same (e.g. everything Apple has done post-Jobs).<br /><br />It was a surprise then (for me with classic D&D) to pick up the old hobby with a cast of new (young) players and still feel the pulse quicken and the incredulous laughter bubble forth. It seems so grounded and "real" in a virtual age. Pure joy!<br /> <br />(And it didn't require a monthly subscription or a chat with customer support.)<br /><br />With regard to the anger directed at aging geeks and our geeky ways (D&D, computers, comic books, etc.)---let's not forgot, we were ALWAYS outsiders subject to potential ridicule for the things we liked. The only thing that's changed is now we are also old and CREEPY too. The solution is the same as always---careful what you say and who you say it to (for fear of being misunderstood and labeled something awful). Also, generally avoid the "cool kids", as they can be socially savage thought-police---unforgiving of dissenting (odd) views. <br /><br />There's always been folks fighting over who gets to steer the 'mainstream' barge, Trent, and it ain't ever been guys like us. Que sera sera. Just BE old...just don't let it make you sad or angry.squeenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15975523149573452984noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4522018539311056682.post-20231600087060909332019-10-29T21:26:23.676-07:002019-10-29T21:26:23.676-07:00The preamble to your follow-up question is the mos...The preamble to your follow-up question is the most interestig facet to me:<br /><br />"In a semi-virtual environment where everyone is limited physically by their local circumstances, but simultaneously borderless in their virtual selves, where friendships, cliques, marketing and "community" all segue seamlessly into one another, where hard elements stopping someone from, for instance, starting a blog or publishing a PDF are minimal, but where attention and reputation are essentially resources, and where the whole thing is very fluid and constantly changing-"<br /><br />...because as a new arrival to this scene this is the facet I'm having the most difficulty negotiating. The question with which it is folowed is telling, because it encourages us to evaluate this "semi-virtual environment" in terms of power structures: telling because this is how all of us approach a scene or community or any social situation, consciously or not. It raises the question: how do we create an environment where power doesn't matter?<br /><br />I'm starting to drift into territory in which my confidence perhaps exceeds my intellect, so I'll reel it back in: as a new "entrant" or prospective entrant to "the scene", there are aspects of one's identity which might grant one greater cachet (and by extension, power). These aspects could be gender, race, or age (with different spaces according different levels of power to different variations of such aspect)... but it seems to me that the greatest reverence is granted to those who have a) been published and b) have taken principled stands in their publications. So, superficially, this is meritocratic. <br /><br />Of course, we can then come back to questions of what role their gender, race, sexuality etc. played in getting them published, and (if we really want to dig deep) how much their identity contributed to their capacity to produce great work (the great works of pre-war 20th Century fiction were by and large produced by members of the upper social order whose backgrounds afforded thhem the very best education).<br /><br />Okay this is broadening as well as lengthening, so finally:<br /><br />The only way to assert a genuine egalitarianism in the here and now is a complete erasure of identity and history. The result is the Khmer Rouge's year Zero, which no-one really wants (not that I know of), so instead we're left to muddle through with all of our cultural baggage, hopefully slouching slowly towards ~~Bethlehem to be born~~ a future without gates and borders of any kind.<br /><br />Yuk, glib... but brevity as never been a virtue of mine, whenever it's attempted I waste to many words excusing my own lack of brevity...Sofinho - Alone in the Labyrinthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13483910003385026924noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4522018539311056682.post-49973523302486377382019-10-29T12:43:54.179-07:002019-10-29T12:43:54.179-07:00I've been about this, I need to add that boyco...I've been about this, I need to add that boycott, coercion and speeches are gatekeeping only (I can't think of an exception at the moment) when they are based on a moral ground.<br /><br />I can boycott a publisher that uses his money to support Trump (or corrupt parties PRI and PAN in Mexico, to give a local example). That doesn't mean I'm gatekeeping.<br /><br />But the moment I boycott a publisher because he publishes books I find offensive, now then I'm gatekeeping.<br /><br />Coercion works the same, I guess. I can threaten my kids that if they vote Trump I won't give them money and that is not gatekeeping, is education (and, yeah, family values and family educations are violent, are forced into children: you must believe in this god, not in that; you will eat this, not that; you will go to this school, not that...)<br /><br />But coercion as gatekeeping works when I threaten to ban someone from my Facebook or MeWe group because he talks about a game I find offensive.Vagabundork (Chaos Magick-User)https://www.blogger.com/profile/10945302216491852035noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4522018539311056682.post-23043489362677770262019-10-29T12:36:53.492-07:002019-10-29T12:36:53.492-07:00Rating my own works in public, especially where th...Rating my own works in public, especially where there were numerous other people involved, is something I would rather not do.pjamesstuarthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13288777018721199748noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4522018539311056682.post-32427478833613909722019-10-28T11:49:18.015-07:002019-10-28T11:49:18.015-07:00Yeah, and sometimes what two people want are incom...Yeah, and sometimes what two people want are incompatible. Sometimes the games they want to play are too different to satisfy both. Sometimes they just don't get along, or like each other. <br /><br />It's the same things that happen with any social activity, but often with some added baggage fairly unique to tabletop games. Matihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05394582345741717229noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4522018539311056682.post-24888120474805494242019-10-28T10:22:34.032-07:002019-10-28T10:22:34.032-07:00Gatekeeping is deplatforming, demanding that indiv...Gatekeeping is deplatforming, demanding that individuals be banned from public venues such as conventions, fora or online distribution platforms that control a large percentage of the marketplace based on characteristics that are peripheral too, or have nothing to do with their contribution to the hobby. <br /><br />Expecting a baseline of familiarity with the subject matter and the cultural background behind the hobby, broad though it may be, is a vital component in ensuring its vitality and longevity, but otherwise association should be on a strictly voluntary basis. <br /><br />I am vaguely incredulous that any of the aforementioned public spaces is anything but deliriously enthusiastic at the prospect of adding yet more (insert appropriate category here) to their ranks but I am certainly open to viewing any non-anecdotal peer-reviewed statistical evidence to the contrary. <br /><br />I haven't checked out Silent Titans yet. Where would you rate it among your other works?<br />PrinceofNothinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11733680486570025367noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4522018539311056682.post-8382952433072462532019-10-28T09:07:50.553-07:002019-10-28T09:07:50.553-07:00Basically yes.
I think people who are hypersensi...Basically yes. <br /><br />I think people who are hypersensitive and people who are overly robust both need to change and be less sensitive or less robust respectively. You don't get anywhere in life by saying "I am inherently this way and have no intention of changing". That's the mentality of a 2 year old. I also think it's a mistake to see things in terms of moral advantage. In most social situations people are perfectly nice and polite to each other and make accomodations - I almost literally cannot imagine a circumstance in which somebody is going to turn up to some occasion in which D&D is being played and the other people tell them they can't play. I mean for people who are older than, like, 12. noismshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09933436762608669966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4522018539311056682.post-55484707817372505172019-10-27T01:47:19.516-07:002019-10-27T01:47:19.516-07:00Scott's definition works for me also.
To me t...Scott's definition works for me also.<br /><br />To me these are not the acts of a good friend, nor by corollary things that only a crazy asperger monk could avoid. charles mark fergusonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13385121479729236749noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4522018539311056682.post-91469192067626267782019-10-26T11:25:50.715-07:002019-10-26T11:25:50.715-07:00Yeah, it sounds like we have different ideas of wh...Yeah, it sounds like we have different ideas of what counts as "openness," and that's okay. What I'm really struck by, though, is that I think we're thinking about "gatekeeping" differently, too. You are discussing it in terms of whether it should "really have anything to do with me," and in terms of "the responsibility of a bunch of people on the internet." But I don't mean to suggest that we need to understand gatekeeping in terms of shaming, blaming, or social responsibility, which seems to be your concern in those statements. We can also just look at it pragmatically: Do we want more people participating in our hobbies? Do we want a more inclusive hobby, representing a broader range of perspectives? Well, certain technical capabilities and not-unfounded fears are currently barriers to that; it's up to us to decide whether we want to make the effort to help people overcome those barriers. Indifference to those barriers is part of my understanding of what "gatekeeping" means, even if it's not an active or even purposeful effort to shut the door on people's faces. <br /><br />As I said before, though, I don't think it's very useful to look at these things as isolated behaviors, devoid of context. If somebody's doing other stuff that actively boosts people from marginalized or less well-represented backgrounds in the industry/community, I don't feel like it's practical or useful to chide them as a "gatekeeper" just because they've got a jargon-heavy blog or whatever. I don't mean that every move we make needs to be geared toward radical inclusion. We're allowed to do things for ourselves, for our friends, in our insular nerd enclaves (which my own blog is very much an example of). <br /><br />I don't mind if you don't that we may have different understandings of "gatekeeping," though. Just trying to clarify how I understand the term, as requested. Hope it helps.Jason Thttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17652211402639394877noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4522018539311056682.post-59057957182049899692019-10-26T10:47:52.770-07:002019-10-26T10:47:52.770-07:00Cultural studies and sociology research, I guess? ...Cultural studies and sociology research, I guess? Long story short, there's a substantial and persuasive body of empirical research and journalistic writing on the axes of cultural power, notably race, gender, and socioeconomic class, and I happen to fall into the "pretty damn privileged" category along all of those axes. If I get pulled over for speeding, I don't have to worry that I'm going to get shot because the color of my skin makes the authority figure with the gun uneasy (and then literally get away with murder). If I get passed over for a raise, I don't have to question whether I could be making more if I were of another gender. Countless studies have already shown that social systems are already rigged in my favor.<br /><br />But of course, that's a pretty privileged answer right there: I was very lucky to get paid to get a PhD, and doubly lucky that I got to both take and teach courses at extremely diverse women's colleges. Those experiences exposed me to a lot of people and perspectives I likely wouldn't have encountered otherwise. And I have to admit, I don't know that I would've understood how privileged I am if I'd only heard that claim from randos on the internet. I have to imagine that reading what women, people of color, and LGBTQ people have to say about privilege and gatekeeping will communicate a lot more than anything I could say, seeing as how I'm pretty much inside the "gate" already.Jason Thttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17652211402639394877noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4522018539311056682.post-28180462876298292432019-10-26T10:16:24.801-07:002019-10-26T10:16:24.801-07:00How do you personally decide or understand for you...How do you personally decide or understand for yourself who does or doesn't have more or less privilege than you?pjamesstuarthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13288777018721199748noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4522018539311056682.post-57754017429296180642019-10-26T10:04:40.151-07:002019-10-26T10:04:40.151-07:00So by institutional power would you view that as j...So by institutional power would you view that as just the kind of thing that leaves a bureaucratic mark, like a literal job or a measurable decision, seperate from the social world?<br /><br />How do you account in your paradigm for people who, by inherent nature or by some other reason, are waaaay across the sensitivity curve from you when it comes to "the power of words"?<br /><br />If someone hypersensitive has an argument with someone who is, lets say, "robust", but if both of their natures are natural or inherent to who they are, who decides the terms of engagement or who has the moral advantage?pjamesstuarthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13288777018721199748noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4522018539311056682.post-59355774912737932682019-10-26T09:59:40.754-07:002019-10-26T09:59:40.754-07:00That's interesting thank you. It seems like fo...That's interesting thank you. It seems like for many people who investigate the question, it comes down to some aspect of the "Golden Rule" - Am I doing what I would want others to do to me, or acting in a way I would want others to act towards me in their place.<br /><br />And that seems massively deepened and complexified by the staggering kallaidoscope of different personality types, experiences of the world and moral intuitions people can bring to a situation, so asking yourself "What would I want if I were them?" becomes a very sophisticated thing. pjamesstuarthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13288777018721199748noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4522018539311056682.post-8760738531011693472019-10-26T09:52:58.244-07:002019-10-26T09:52:58.244-07:00I think I would view those things quite differentl...I think I would view those things quite differently. Speaking personally I don't think other peoples access to technology, their free time and their fears of being shunned really have anything to do with me.<br /><br />From my own life at various times I have been too busy to do stuff like this, have not had the tech to be involved and I often still find places and groups to be either unwelcoming, or simply to have methods and attitudes I don't like. It would seem incoherent to me to say that I was at any point being Gatekept from any of those groups. How could it possibly be the responsibility of a bunch of people on the internet, communicating by computer, to make sure that *I* have a laptop? Or that there is some publicly-available hardcopy of what they are up to?<br /><br />As far as being welcoming, I find most internet spaces superficially welcoming but in effect each operating by a subtly different range of hidden interpersonal power structures and moral intuitions, and I have not found any place that *doesn't* work that way.<br /><br />Of the three things you mention at the end, I would take one of them, the paywalled slack channel, to be totally different from the other two, the subreddit and the blogosphere, as paywall literally keeps something off the publicly accessible record and does so in a way controllable by the people who set it up and the others do not.<br /><br />I think we may be operating under totally different intuitions and assumptions about what counts as 'openness'.pjamesstuarthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13288777018721199748noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4522018539311056682.post-57815285431598129372019-10-25T19:45:42.824-07:002019-10-25T19:45:42.824-07:00Rereading this, I fear it comes across with greate...Rereading this, I fear it comes across with greater hostility than intended. For what it's worth, I suspect I'm behind plenty of unintended gatekeeping myself. I don't think it necessarily makes us bad. I just think we need to be mindful.Jason Thttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17652211402639394877noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4522018539311056682.post-44567530489683291862019-10-25T19:32:57.898-07:002019-10-25T19:32:57.898-07:00You can probably define "gatekeeping" br...You can probably define "gatekeeping" broadly, in this context, as any attempt to restrict access insular group. That isn't necessarily bad in itself. Generally, though, when we talk about "gatekeeping" as implicitly bad, I understand it to refer to when individuals with unexamined sociocultural privilege say and do things, even unwittingly, that signal to less privileged people that they are not welcome, generally by reinforcing the "rightness" of an imbalanced status quo. In other words, it's only "gatekeeping" when you're already inside the gate, and the world on that side of the gate seems pretty heavily catered to you. <br /><br />By that definition, it's NOT gatekeeping to criticize a game's art for disproportionately featuring cisgender white dude heroes rescuing scantily-clad damsels in distress from villainous people of color. That criticism of might be uncomfortable for a lot of insiders, but they're already insiders. It IS gatekeeping to accuse that critic of "gatekeeping" for having the temerity to attack the status quo. <br /><br />And, with all due respect, it is an unwitting form of gatekeeping to open a conversation about gatekeeping by implicitly expressing doubt that "gatekeeping" is a thing, as the addendum in the post above does. I honestly believe you don't mean to come across that way, and that you do genuinely want to understand better how on Earth such an "open" media environment could because construed as "gatekeeping." And that's a fair question! (Which I tried to address elsewhere in the thread.) But anything signaling to less privileged people that their opinions are not welcome or will not be considered seriously is understandably likely to turn them away. The "gate" in this case isn't even a technical hurdle, but the promise of a chilly reception and an uphill battle. If this comment thread DOESN'T turn into a shitshow, I'd take that as a sign that the gatekeeping is working well enough to turn away folks who don't see the point in arguing.Jason Thttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17652211402639394877noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4522018539311056682.post-86860442294570982092019-10-25T19:13:30.162-07:002019-10-25T19:13:30.162-07:00(Sorry, that was meant to reply directly to anothe...(Sorry, that was meant to reply directly to another comment. Reposted in thread above.)Jason Thttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17652211402639394877noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4522018539311056682.post-8596221999542158862019-10-25T19:12:45.230-07:002019-10-25T19:12:45.230-07:00If I may jump in....
The short answer, I think, i...If I may jump in....<br /><br />The short answer, I think, is that this environment is only "open" if you have (a) sufficient technical literacy and access to technology to figure out how to find useful information online, (b) sufficient free time to educate yourself on references and jargon written for an audience of insiders, and (c) minimal fear of feeling shunned or unwelcome, despite the bulk of material being written with regard to how to actively welcome newcomers, and pervasive stereotypes of "gamers" as racist, misogynistic jerks (unfortunately based on the loudest and worst elements of hobbyist communities, but based on real people and events nevertheless).<br /><br />Now, to be clear, I don't mean to suggest we shouldn't have any insider knowledge, or that folk art movements or hobbyist entertainment shouldn't be a decentralized thing scattered across the blogosphere, or whatever else. I think "gatekeeping," as defined above, exists on a spectrum. Hanging a sign that says "no girls allowed" is clearly a more adamant form of gatekeeping than throwing some D&D jargon into our blog posts.<br /><br />But I don't think it's useful to only examine individual examples to check off "gatekeeping" or "not gatekeeping" for each. This stuff all exists in context. Yes, it's a form of gatekeeping if the only feasible way to enter a community is through a hobbyist blogosphere, or a paywalled Slack channel, or a subreddit, or whatever. That doesn't mean you can't have those things, though. It just means that if you want to reduce gatekeeping, if you want to actively welcome new people, you have to go out of your way to offer them other ways in.Jason Thttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17652211402639394877noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4522018539311056682.post-89178656819911584352019-10-25T19:12:04.128-07:002019-10-25T19:12:04.128-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.Jason Thttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17652211402639394877noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4522018539311056682.post-91050666440708313332019-10-25T16:55:42.440-07:002019-10-25T16:55:42.440-07:00That can't be gatekeeping! Parents, teachers, ...That can't be gatekeeping! Parents, teachers, good friends, brothers do that all the time. They are not keeping you out, they are introducing you into something.Vagabundork (Chaos Magick-User)https://www.blogger.com/profile/10945302216491852035noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4522018539311056682.post-61431788953231919352019-10-25T16:46:17.152-07:002019-10-25T16:46:17.152-07:00Yes. Perhaps there's some level of unconscious...Yes. Perhaps there's some level of unconscious gatekeeping, like designing a game with a certain kind of contents that will scare away people you don't like around, but it's pretty hard to tell between that and genuine liking, right?Vagabundork (Chaos Magick-User)https://www.blogger.com/profile/10945302216491852035noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4522018539311056682.post-73758118879993247452019-10-25T09:58:53.444-07:002019-10-25T09:58:53.444-07:00It is possible we old farts have always felt like ...It is possible we old farts have always felt like this, Trent. <br /><br />That said, you're not the only one who finds the disdain for the "pale, male and stale" offputting. I don't know how it is that equality turned into slagging off older white men, but it ain't pretty.noismshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09933436762608669966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4522018539311056682.post-77040269829450263832019-10-25T09:31:01.010-07:002019-10-25T09:31:01.010-07:00When playing and talking about D&D with others...When playing and talking about D&D with others I tend to make an implicit/subconscious assumption that they exist in more-or-less the same socio-cultural matrix as I do and that their interest in and knowledge of the game is comparable to mine (at least in kind, if not degree). So I'll make a lot of shorthand references to stuff without explaining it. I can see how some people who don't share the same background and interests might see this as elitist and exclusionary and call that gatekeeping, but I don't mean it that way. That said, I'm also not inclined to change my mode of play or conversation to accommodate people who aggressively don't care about a bunch of "dead white people" and am much more likely to just not interact with them than to try to find common ground, so in that respect there is a gate, but if anything it seems like I'm the one on the outside.<br /><br />A couple weeks ago my niece had her birthday party at a "geek" themed party space attached to a store that also hosts a bunch of gaming and geek-culture events. I think my wife was hoping I would bond with the store owner and become involved in their events, but I didn't feel much kinship with what I saw: the crowd (everyone but the owner) was 10+ years younger than me and they all seemed to exist in a different socio-cultural matrix centered on cartoon shows I've never seen, podcasts I've never listened to, and video and board games I've never played rather than the 80s-era pop-culture (Lucas, Spielberg, Henson, MTV, Atari, etc.) and "traditional western canon" of dead white guys (Homer, Dante, Mallory, Shakespeare, Cervantes, Dumas, Hugo, Dickens, Faulkner, Hemingway, Steinbeck, Tolkien, Vance, Vonnegut, Pynchon*, etc.) that I know and care about. I strongly suspect if I tried to play in a game with these kids they'd think I was very lame and boring and out-of-touch, and may well take offense at my lack of knowledge of "their" culture. So to the extent there's a gate, I'm not the one keeping it. <br /><br />*not actually deadTrenthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01889179660165006042noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4522018539311056682.post-86996132523991646832019-10-25T09:05:02.280-07:002019-10-25T09:05:02.280-07:00For me gatekeeping requires institutional power. I...For me gatekeeping requires institutional power. It's about "keeping gates". You can only do that if you have control of whether it's open or closed.<br /><br />Being obnoxious and saying "I hate blah blah so people who do that or are like that have no place in my hobby" makes you a prick but not a gatekeeper. At the end of the day it's just words and words, contrary to popular belief these days, are not magic. <br /><br />On the other hand, actually excluding people through an institution, like e.g. drivethrurpg picking and choosing who gets to publish through their site, is gatekeeping. That might be good or bad, of course.noismshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09933436762608669966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4522018539311056682.post-41640360247262546612019-10-25T08:24:14.701-07:002019-10-25T08:24:14.701-07:00Good question. Probably I'd consider my own be...Good question. Probably I'd consider my own behavior, and their behavior, and how it could be mapped onto other situations. Things like "if a more regular member of the group exhibited the same behavior, would I react the same?" or "if I were behaving like that, how would I expect or want people to react?" or "based on what I know about them, is it possible I'm treating them uncharitably due to an incomplete picture."<br /><br />I guess the core of it would probably boil down to, "am I trying to improve the experience of myself and my group, or does my behavior more closely resemble an attempt to damage theirs?"<br /><br />This can totally be done accidentally. Like, I tend to enjoy a bit of inter-character conflict, but I ran into a situation where a player phased out their character and created a new one because they felt that my character didn't like theirs. I had to impress that if something I am doing is making your experience less good, tell me and I will stop. We're all here to have fun, and if I'm damaging your experience, please tell me so I can rectify that.<br /><br />But in that situation, my behavior might have appeared like implicit Gatekeeping, especially if we didn't know each other particularly well. Matihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05394582345741717229noreply@blogger.com