tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4522018539311056682.post6061977040152555268..comments2024-03-27T01:28:28.346-07:00Comments on False Machine: Timeline of the Prescience Warspjamesstuarthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13288777018721199748noreply@blogger.comBlogger18125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4522018539311056682.post-57771658562690127742022-04-18T06:15:18.797-07:002022-04-18T06:15:18.797-07:00Although there's a good chance you already kno...Although there's a good chance you already know about it, I'd point to Doctor Who's concept of the War in Heaven as a good example of an absolute incomprehensible time-based clusterfuck.<br /><br />Granted, the War in Heaven had several other things going on with it in the real world that would require an entire essay to explain, but the less metafictional pieces of Faction Paradox are probably a decent place to pull from.<br /><br />(Just to give the uninitiated a glimpse into how fucking confusing Faction Paradox got - The Enemy, the primary antagonist force of the war, has been claimed to be, at different points:<br />- Hyperintelligent Mammoths<br />- The in-universe fictional character of Dracula<br />- Every Tardigrade, at the same time<br />- Four-dimensional Mimic Octopi so advanced they could even disguise themselves as ideas <br />- The Real-World Author of most of the War in Heaven booksTarrasque in Fire Formhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14353015931838517268noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4522018539311056682.post-49556874108957124532022-03-15T09:30:14.389-07:002022-03-15T09:30:14.389-07:00The pathists seem extremely zealous, which I think...The pathists seem extremely zealous, which I think is an advantage against prescience on it's own. A prescient may be able to find the path of least resistance, but they can't create one that isn't there. If they're fighting a group that is unwilling to negotiate, give quarter, or surrender; made up of people who are so indoctrinated against you that even intervening before their births can't sway them away from taking up arms; many of a seer's subtle and political options are robbed from them. <br /><br />It doesn't rob seers of their military potency, but it is something. I think the solution is not to be more chaotic to confuse them, confusion and chaos only serve the party with more insight. I think the solution is to be more predictable, more resolute. If you could reach a state of mind where absolutely nothing can sway you from your path, the seer must now work around you like a pillar in time. RenaissanceWoodsmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04487142394039022818noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4522018539311056682.post-52586589582757520682022-03-14T09:32:19.993-07:002022-03-14T09:32:19.993-07:00"(at least if you intend this to be of practi..."(at least if you intend this to be of practical importance in a module, rather than a fun self-contained exercise)" - its very much a fun exercise rather than being written for production/publication/usage, I work on game stuff all day so this is my time off. Will think about possible linkages.pjamesstuarthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13288777018721199748noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4522018539311056682.post-57725722555125711212022-03-12T01:54:12.600-08:002022-03-12T01:54:12.600-08:00Enjoying this series so far, particularly the Earl...Enjoying this series so far, particularly the Early Modern atmosphere and attention to the horror-like aspects of foresight. A few points:<br />(1) On tactics, I think Demiurge has a lot of good points. I'd add that because a prescient army has the luxury of knowing how minor tactical details translate into strategic consequences, a lot of the things it does would seem nonsensical or counterproductive to an opponent e.g. they might use most of their artillery to destroy one small unit of dragoons on the left wing, because they know that its second lieutenant will go on to be a great general in ten years' time. This can lead opponents down a rabbit hole of second-guessing e.g<br /> "They're surrendering this town very easily, does that mean they've foreseen that taking it will be a long-run strategic disaster for us, or is it a bluff designed to make us think that and retreat when we don't need to?"<br />(2) I support your commitment to allow for genuine historical change in the intervening period, by avoiding HH style eternal characters and societal stasis etc. However, I wonder if you might want to work a bit on embedding concrete legacies of this prehistory into the present (at least if you intend this to be of practical importance in a module, rather than a fun self-contained exercise), otherwise there's a risk that it becomes a more imaginative and gorgeously-written version of the first-time DM starting the campaign with "So to introduce the setting, 5,000 years ago the elf lords were destroyed in the first of the twelve Wars of Flame. No trace of them remains...". Especially as there's not an obvious thematic connection between the premise of the prehistory (loosely, 'Cromwell+soothsayers') and of the Eclipse Knights (loosely, 'chivalry+Cthulhu+dreams'); when the series first started, I admit my reaction was "odd, I thought he said he was going to write about the Eclipse Knights, but this is a totally different project". It should be very doable to get important linkages going, as the future sight of the prescients mean they can interact with even very distant descendants through fragmentary surviving prophecies etc, but it's something to think about I guess.<br />(3) Finally, again just to reiterate my enjoyment of some rare Early Modern fantasy content. I'm even starting to see the influence of Amber Court assassins in our own world...<br />Elizabeth I has always been the Virgin Queen, content to rule without husband or heir. Then why, as she lies on her deathbed, does her memory gravitate to strange lacunae, like empty rooms in the palace that seem made to serve as nurseries? Meanwhile, the pale scholar-king north of the border is being measured for his coronation robes, and a Stratford playwright dreams of a crown bestowed by the prophecies of witches...Montefeltrohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18409785016135534886noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4522018539311056682.post-66145666867648371002022-03-10T23:13:30.728-08:002022-03-10T23:13:30.728-08:00There's a web serial I enjoy in which a future...There's a web serial I enjoy in which a future reader (one capable of reading "strands" of the future) is combated by a team making twenty plans, leaving scrawled notes related to the plans scattered between the party, and then mind wiping themselves. If your intent and plans shift drastically moment to moment, future reading reliant on your intent and plans breaks down. Annon #8107https://www.blogger.com/profile/16869484989966434932noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4522018539311056682.post-30519640228270017542022-03-10T23:08:15.768-08:002022-03-10T23:08:15.768-08:00The parallels to the Iron Men or w/e they're c...The parallels to the Iron Men or w/e they're called again also struck me the first time I read through it. There also feels like there's a bit of shared DNA between the old-timy-fairy-tale-all-the-time "amber" side and the more chivalric and romantic aspects of the Knights?<br />Annon #8107https://www.blogger.com/profile/16869484989966434932noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4522018539311056682.post-10471196256533425972022-03-10T10:42:18.583-08:002022-03-10T10:42:18.583-08:00That's an excellent analysis which I will stea...That's an excellent analysis which I will steal freely frompjamesstuarthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13288777018721199748noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4522018539311056682.post-8925115812667014142022-03-10T10:37:37.989-08:002022-03-10T10:37:37.989-08:00No I don't want any Presience Wars characters ...No I don't want any Presience Wars characters turning up in the Eclipse Knights 'present day', I hate the way the HH has collapsed the 10k years between the present and the past.<br /><br />Freelance Amber-Court castoffs offering their services to small powers during the Amber Court wars would be cool, actually that sounds like an adventure series; Edgy inaccurate prescienct mercenary series.<br /><br />Aye the YS is most of the Elcipsed Kingdoms written history. Even the rides of the sleeping king are more scripture and myth than history, though no doubt everyone knows them.<br /><br />The Endless do have pretty good personalities though..<br /><br />I hope the Iron & Amber Path conflicts don't turn up again in the Eclipsed Kingdom, they have enough to deal with.pjamesstuarthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13288777018721199748noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4522018539311056682.post-70484124043131775342022-03-10T10:32:02.494-08:002022-03-10T10:32:02.494-08:00It all comes together in the end. It was the birds...It all comes together in the end. It was the birds.pjamesstuarthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13288777018721199748noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4522018539311056682.post-90663493484368294322022-03-10T10:30:00.279-08:002022-03-10T10:30:00.279-08:00Well both sides don't have it because one won&...Well both sides don't have it because one won't use it. The "how much combat power to defeat (probably) prescient opposition" question is something only they have to think about. And probably it won't resolve that way cleanly as, well for a variety of reasons but first of all, how do you know a victory in battle was actually good for you if you are fighting prescient opposition? Any or every win in a conflict could well be simply a trip down the garden path leading you to ultimate defeat.pjamesstuarthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13288777018721199748noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4522018539311056682.post-83302490527522693682022-03-10T10:26:05.450-08:002022-03-10T10:26:05.450-08:00I did not know about that book!
Re; strength/dept...I did not know about that book!<br /><br />Re; strength/depth of Prescience, the Amber Court is pretty carefully organised so that prescient 'working groups' are isolated from each other, which would indicated that the effect of prescients' on other prescients' is assumed to be highly disruptive. Their methodology seems to largely be deep analysis of chosen fate lines towards a limited cause, with instructions and orders sent out to non-prescient forces on how to execute, with the stronger prescients' in a managerial position, governing collections of influencers who are each working separately to each other. It raises some interesting possibilities.pjamesstuarthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13288777018721199748noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4522018539311056682.post-9468972941595654862022-03-10T10:19:54.864-08:002022-03-10T10:19:54.864-08:00I'm wondering if anything *did* survive... My ...I'm wondering if anything *did* survive... My initial takeaway was near-total cultural destruction enabling re-growth. They may still have ancidents in the cults and houses of the Black Church. The Monks of St Korbin do seem very "iron path"<br /><br />Re fault - well they did fuck up reality so badly that they either accidentally summoned or instantiated Azathoth, so pretty much everything.pjamesstuarthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13288777018721199748noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4522018539311056682.post-15308010791803576912022-03-09T16:12:10.704-08:002022-03-09T16:12:10.704-08:00"How would a prescience-guided army actually ..."How would a prescience-guided army actually fight?"<br /><br />Assuming prescience well short of effective omniscience, I think what you'd get at first with a prescience-guided army (vs. a non-prescient one) is a relatively small, highly-trained group emphasizing decisive, precise applications of force.<br /><br />Keeping things on the smaller side means you're more maneuverable, less dependent on supply trains, and thus can react better to the omens you see in bird guts or whatever. Fewer people are probably also easier to predict for than more. The intelligence of your prescience will act as a force-multiplier, scouting without perceivable and trackable scouts - the enemy meets you when and where you want them to.<br /><br />The first part of your army the enemy would encounter would probably be light cavalry, hitting them exactly when they're tired, incautious, demoralized, etc. The second would be temporary defensive emplacements, trenches, mantlets, war wagons, and the like, prepared well ahead of time on the paths you've predicted and harried the enemy along.<br /><br />I imagine that in the chaos of pitched battle, prescience would be trickier - rather than the one perfect prediction, you'd probably be trying for many shoddier ones that together add up to routing the enemy, where your longer-term harrying and siege defenses haven't worn them down enough. Cavalry charges, ambushes, false retreats, other such big, decisive, singular actions would be biased toward - prescient armies would probably be early adopters of rifling for snipers. Again, drilling the shit out of your army would be important - you might need them to do weird, almost speedrunner-esque tricks on the spur of the moment to win the day.<br /><br />What the reaction to this on the part of the non-prescient armies could be: more numbers, more complications - flatter army hierarchies, greater flexibility given to lower-level officers, decisions made by rolling dice, reduce single points of failure as much as possible - probably movement towards more democratic social order in general, or at least more oligarchical than monarchical.<br /><br />Having your own prescients seems like it'd be pretty effective too - spirals out fast - gotta predict their predictions of you predicting them predicting you - only so many birds with so many guts in them. Bonfire of the vanities for divinatory materials - smash mirrors, exterminate birds, etc.<br /><br />Memetic threats likely force vagueness in prescience - low-fidelity as memetic protection. Begin with straightforward visions, then the anti-prescients get their hands on a Vitreous Medusa and your prescients' eyes turn into venomous polyp-blooms, so you stick to tarot readings or whatever.<br /><br />"is the argument over prescience and its relationship to moral action, which has been a big theme in a lot of mainstream genre stuff in the last decade, feeding into or off some particular strand of something in the cultural gestalt? "<br /><br />Feeding off a couple strands, off the top of my head.<br /><br />The first, the movement of thinking of crime in terms of punishment/personal responsibility to rehabilitation/environment/predisposition - the darker side of that, internal => external locus of control, Ludovico technique, eugenics.<br /><br />The second, technology making it increasingly possible, or at least seeming to make it increasingly possible, to predict people's behaviour, and not in the sense that you might be able to predict how a close friend might act, with intimate familiarity and respecting their subjectivity and so on but as an abstract cluster of identifiers within this great impersonal surveillance/cybernetic machine that society has become.semiurgehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10613841869525544649noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4522018539311056682.post-21750750650719954542022-03-09T08:30:03.095-08:002022-03-09T08:30:03.095-08:00I take it that the 30k to 40k comparison is not su...I take it that the 30k to 40k comparison is not supposed to be a perfect guide to the relationship of the Prescience Wars to the era of the Eclipse Knights. No Eclipse Primogenitors running round clashing in repeated indecisive battles. <br /><br />The notion of the Water-Horse Wars being attached to the image of Reformation/Civil War armies brings in the Thirty Years War - and with it, the idea of mercenaries. What does a prescient mercenary look like? How do you negotiate with them? If an ordinary mercenary reputedly leaves the sinking ship quicker than any rat, how much more is this so for the prescient? (Is to be prescient at all to have a greater allegiance than to Mammon?)<br /><br />The Years of Sleep presumably contain the Crusades against the Haeretici Ferrea, Avis Infernalis, &c detailed in the 'Enemies of God and King' post.<br /><br />For what it's worth, I suspect one can be fairly arbitrary when crafting deep-time antediluvian figures from the perspective of the Eclipsed Kingdom. Aronofsky aside, people don't mull over the motivations of Noah and Methuselah much. To make the aforementioned obvious but misleading comparison, consider the first appearances of the Primarchs in the 1990s (I wish I could find a suitable reference). I suspect the generation of Gaiman's Endless was almost as (effortless? glib?) as the naming of Ferrus Manus. <br /><br />The question of the cultural gestalt leads to that over-used phrase of 'the End of History'. From the mapped-out bounds of Cold War conflict to golden hegemony to.....uncertainty, a questioning of liberal democratic norms. Of course, dissent and scepticism of the presumed golden path never went away - but they return with renewed vigour. Cue Culture War. Of course, that's my ripped-from-the-headlines, ambiguously-hot-take, so-obvious-it-must-be-wrong suggestion.<br />Solomon VKhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11763252777153908412noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4522018539311056682.post-7536885499644767902022-03-09T02:22:05.579-08:002022-03-09T02:22:05.579-08:00If I was a monk in the Eclipsed Kingdom I could wr...If I was a monk in the Eclipsed Kingdom I could write a killer manuscript on possible origins of knightly bird-denial in Pathist abhorrence of all augry. Telling the future is wrong -> you can tell the future by watching the movements of birds -> do not acknowledge birds.Ben Masseyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09296387469310535838noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4522018539311056682.post-91520733815916504302022-03-09T01:26:11.877-08:002022-03-09T01:26:11.877-08:00I think the saddest part is that prescience now ju...I think the saddest part is that prescience now just becomes another resource management game in any given conflict. Unless it is strong enough to stop a battle entirely, prescience is just a feature certain units have that gives them advantage in narrow circumstances, especially when it's something that's present on both sides of a conflict. "What's a prescient unit worth," becomes a well defined and understood calculation. Even if you complicated it with a prescience scale, it's no more complicated than calculating the number of arrows you might need for a given conflict.More Et Alhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14534773262482896283noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4522018539311056682.post-15747154175378185172022-03-08T15:41:01.110-08:002022-03-08T15:41:01.110-08:00A lot would depend on the "depth" of the...A lot would depend on the "depth" of the prescience. Can they see only the most likely outcomes? How many unlikely but achievable outcomes can they review in a given period of time? Can a strong prescient factor in the decisions of a lesser prescient before they are made?<br />On the face of it prescience should favour the defender. But a strong prescient on the attackers side would only attack the places where they could win ... a stronger prescient would only attack the places on the path to eventual victory.<br />Roger Zelazny did a take on this in "Roadmarks" albeit in personal combat between two prescient fighters.Steveghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07061412994661583425noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4522018539311056682.post-78275246576277899712022-03-08T14:16:44.909-08:002022-03-08T14:16:44.909-08:00I find this all fascinating. Honestly, struggling ...I find this all fascinating. Honestly, struggling with being able to create character almost feels like a boon when it comes to writing pre-history: sketch a rough set of gimmicks and wants for each mythic figure and there you go. Zeus is less personality then archetype.<br /><br />I'm also interested to see the connections from the pre history into the history- Id love to find out things like: what if anything does the amber and iron paths evolve into? How is their influence or consequence still felt in the setting? And working backwards- what part of the Eclipsed knight setting would you pin to being in part or in total the "fault" of the pre history?Annon #8107https://www.blogger.com/profile/16869484989966434932noreply@blogger.com