tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4522018539311056682.post2989999976746670209..comments2024-03-19T01:40:35.117-07:00Comments on False Machine: Arthurian problemspjamesstuarthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13288777018721199748noreply@blogger.comBlogger16125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4522018539311056682.post-32516526027081198862020-01-14T10:38:51.253-08:002020-01-14T10:38:51.253-08:00Yes, it makes one wonder why anyone would use D&am...Yes, it makes one wonder why anyone would use D&D when Pendragon does this so much better. Doc Savagehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08783244633195233970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4522018539311056682.post-5398209740011719542020-01-14T10:38:13.859-08:002020-01-14T10:38:13.859-08:00A+A+Doc Savagehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08783244633195233970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4522018539311056682.post-5308119412076787812020-01-14T10:37:21.204-08:002020-01-14T10:37:21.204-08:00A+A+Doc Savagehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08783244633195233970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4522018539311056682.post-9775662580712083092016-05-01T22:49:30.315-07:002016-05-01T22:49:30.315-07:00I came across your article and found it interestin...I came across your article and found it interesting, if a little ironic. All your points about the challenges of reflecting Arthurian legends in rpgs are valid, however, they are all addressed in the game you show the 1st edition cover of - King Arthur Pendragon. This game, now in it's 5th edition, is well worth a deeper look in how it discusses and addresses all these and other challenges. http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/81449/King-Arthur-Pendragon-Edition-51Psychmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01363558725477413240noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4522018539311056682.post-56758468166495264322015-08-07T08:24:05.468-07:002015-08-07T08:24:05.468-07:00Maybe take a look at Gregor Vuga's Sagas of th...Maybe take a look at Gregor Vuga's Sagas of the Icelanders? That's an rpg that gamifies literature with very rigid gender roles and does so without shying away from them.<br /><br /> http://redmoosegames.tumblr.com/sotiIgnotushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15697814062662239483noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4522018539311056682.post-16344389368620484502015-07-29T08:23:17.942-07:002015-07-29T08:23:17.942-07:00It's kind of amusing that people have no probl...It's kind of amusing that people have no problem playing nonhumans, but it's a huge problem for them to play Christians.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4522018539311056682.post-80419748465238874012015-07-29T01:57:18.294-07:002015-07-29T01:57:18.294-07:00"Sometimes in Malory it seems that the gender..."Sometimes in Malory it seems that the genders appear to each other as strange spirits, not quite real, projecting from some other realm."<br /><br />Oh, this finally gets me some great ideas for fey in my campaign.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4522018539311056682.post-36714021652753532312015-07-28T03:39:02.542-07:002015-07-28T03:39:02.542-07:00https://kaptainvon.wordpress.com/2012/08/22/brave-...https://kaptainvon.wordpress.com/2012/08/22/brave-new-worlds-the-once-and-future-king/<br /><br />Scroll down, it's in there, about halfway.Vonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04567409488489870622noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4522018539311056682.post-32958471777490950632015-07-28T02:24:57.723-07:002015-07-28T02:24:57.723-07:00In your opening remarks on religion you talk about...In your opening remarks on religion you talk about swapping out the God of Malory for the gods of modern D&D's vague polytheistic mishmash. Down the line you note that the Chalice of Pelor lacks the resonance of the Holy Grail (you're absolutely right about that) and that's largely because the one is a knockoff of the other. What's more important: the style and ethos and impact of the Arthurian legends in your Arthurian game, or having multiple gods because Dungeons and Dragons has them?<br /><br />Galahad is the definitive Paladin and the walking proof that CHA 17 doesn't mean you're likeable. I imagine him as slightly inhuman - standoffish and ethereal in the manner of T. H. White's portrayal. People fall into line with him and follow him without entirely understanding why they're doing it.<br /><br />While I can see why, if you came in with Malory, you'd see it as a teleological tale building toward the Grail Quest and thence the Death of Arthur, I think you can do Arthurian Romance as a genre without being tangled up in that. Go back to Sir Gawain and the Green Knight, or to 'satellite' stories like the Questing Beast, as touchstones. Also possibly worth considering different iterations of the legend: mine was somewhat more political, drawing more on Geoffrey of Monmouth.<br /><br />You're pretty spot on about race, I think. On the topic of gender I disagree profoundly: playing with or against those archetypes, negotiating with them, sounds profoundly gameable to me. I would be more concerned about female players' characters getting to do things that the players enjoy doing than about anything else. If that means someone wants to be the genderfluid knight then surely that's fine provided everyone wants to engage with the problems of that to the same degree? (I can see there being a practical problem if one of the actual humans involved wants to explore the social implications in great detail and another simply wants to hit things with swords, but this distinction in playstyle and goals within a group of players is nothing new and scads of advice exist on how to resolve it.)<br /><br />Love as an aspect of alignment (in an alignment system more complex than L-N-C or the 3x3 grid) works better than mandatory class changes. You're still a knight even if you have a paramour. I did some tinkering with an Arthurian alignment system a while back: something that would cover allegiance to a particular cause, indicate the loyalty to the cause, and cover the traditional OD&D function of governing who can be turned and by what. I'd link but Wordpress is being a sod today.<br /><br />The game where everyone is playing some sort of special snowflake and forgetting their feudal vows: such is roleplaying. Any attempt to force through a particular style of play will only succeed as long as the most casual player in the group is buying into it. (It's a particular nuisance with Arthuriana because someone, sooner or later, will bring up Monty Python. I have never encountered a gaming group where this is avoidable.) Trying to stay ultra-Arthurian and control the mood at the table... is this not the sin of the Story-Gamer and the Frustrated Novelist?<br /><br />Final thought: John is right. Giving up personal freedom for the sake of verisimilitude is an exercise of agency on the part of players. They are choosing to buy in to a more or less 'authentic' Arthurian legend. You are not taking something away from them, you are offering them the opportunity to give something up in order to emphasise something else. They'll take it up for as long as they want to. Maybe it's a module rather than a campaign: something which will work in short form and not long.Vonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04567409488489870622noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4522018539311056682.post-14341566857203771182015-07-27T04:53:51.001-07:002015-07-27T04:53:51.001-07:00You're creating problems out of nothing. The e...You're creating problems out of nothing. The example you give of the way the game would fail are things that maybe a publisher would have to worry about, but on the level of individual DMs they're completely obviated. Either your group is enthusiastic about playing "the authentic Malory experience" - in which case they won't care if their character's genitals match theirs or that they have to pretend to be Christians - or they're not, in which case your high-concept game is doomed anyway and the pseudo-Arthurian game you describe is actually the better option.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07090296806321882601noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4522018539311056682.post-67596779202774519722015-07-26T00:26:14.288-07:002015-07-26T00:26:14.288-07:00I think I made the best defence I could of linking...I think I made the best defence I could of linking gender to role in the G+ comments when i was talking to Paolo, so I won't reprint them here.pjamesstuarthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13288777018721199748noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4522018539311056682.post-18609693396534956492015-07-25T18:56:15.102-07:002015-07-25T18:56:15.102-07:00I haven't read Malory since like 7th grade - l...I haven't read Malory since like 7th grade - like fifteen years but two things strike me. 1) There doesn't seem to have been any concept of 'queerness' in Malory (other then the allegorical lion joy having - but that's just freaky, not queer). 2) The gender roles are very distinct, blindingly so.<br /><br />Knight/Damsel are almost classes and while gender is implied it seems that the role is more important then the gender. I'd say a knight has certain rules to live by (or suffer mechanical penalties) and so does a damsel. In standard D&D terms these are classes - knight=fighter, damsel = caster/controller (a good damsel always has a least one knight in total thrall). Yes the archetype is gendered but the PC need not be biologically of the traditional sex. A winsome young dandy can enchant knights just as well as a fair maiden and a hard women devoted to god and violence can be a knight - even if she looks feminine (and really she's likely just as scarred up and mean as Sir Gawain) the other knights and such just think she's Galahadish - all inexplicably boyish, but the armor is all they can really see. <br /><br />The rules of conduct are not up for negotiation. Sex has no mechanical effect, but gender and playing ones class/gender role does. A damsel that stabs someone must swoon, a knight that is untrue or submits is shamed - both result in stat loss. The devil tempts knights regardless of sex. The hermits disdain damsels regardless of sex. It's only role that counts. A damsel that wears armor becomes a nebbish night, and a knight that tries to use wiles not honor becomes a nebbish damsel (and must take off his/her armor). Merlin is a damsel.<br /><br />There are also dwarfs - every damn knight seems to have a dwarf (or a varlet or something), these guys/gala stir up shit and generally take care of business. I assume they are specialists. <br /><br />As to religion that's tricky the old gaygaxian law vs. chaos might work - after all those pagan (wasn't Tristan a pagan knight originally?) and Muslim knight that convert are able to do so effectively/seamlessly because they are true knights living within the code of chivalry. The dove god is happy to glow and appear for anyone that follows its crazy set of vows (take a vow each knightly level - break a vow lose a level). Gus Lhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14872819206286105195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4522018539311056682.post-26970376323871949092015-07-25T18:42:44.128-07:002015-07-25T18:42:44.128-07:00(ps yes i know Marion Zimmer Bradley was creepy)(ps yes i know Marion Zimmer Bradley was creepy)Zak Sabbathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4522018539311056682.post-77556702001741912562015-07-25T18:42:14.878-07:002015-07-25T18:42:14.878-07:00Also, idea how to hand limited-freedom of the Chiv...Also, idea how to hand limited-freedom of the Chivalric age under OSR.<br />Each player plays 2 PCs, in one of 2 groups.<br />One is women (accompanied with 1 or 2 men who'd spend a lot of time with a group of women, like maybe a cleric) dealing with Mists of Avalon shit, the other is knights (mostly men, with maybe a single disguised woman or Brean of Tarth).<br />Fun rules for when you scene shift and xp for working together with your other selves.<br />The social divisions might crumble, mid-game but you're still aware of them as a world/game feature while not being bound by them and (like an author) thinking about how they can make the story interesting.<br />If there's social divisions, make the game about social divisions.Zak Sabbathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08812410680077034917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4522018539311056682.post-38428422398113875242015-07-25T14:08:06.452-07:002015-07-25T14:08:06.452-07:00AH!
Just randomly today opened up the blogroll, ha...AH!<br />Just randomly today opened up the blogroll, haven't done so in a long time, and tripped over this article. This is a subject dear to my heart as I have been into the Arthurian stuff for years, and never succeeded in translating it to the gaming table properly. I think you're making some really good points here, but is there something wrong with limiting PC's choices for their characters to keep the feel of the setting? I mean, it's one thing to say "OKay, this is D&D. But you can only play white dudes. And only fighters. Maybe one of you can be a wizard, that's it."<br />But if you say "We're playing King Arthur's knights," and everyone's stoked on it, why not restrict their choices?<br />However, the problems of dreams, narrative, and love are tougher ones. I don't have any ideas for that stuff.<br /><br />What I do really like about the Arthurian stories (especially Malory, I think specifically because he's cribbing from everybody) is how it's supposed to be a History, but it feels like it takes place in some alien time and geography. Especially during the grail quest, the knights wander for years and years without running into each other, tripping over unheard-of castles crammed with knights & maidens that nobody has ever met before, theoretically inside their own territory. I always thought that element was the best part and maybe the most gameable.HDAhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13506175636615989219noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4522018539311056682.post-84036319585828032942015-07-25T08:00:00.486-07:002015-07-25T08:00:00.486-07:00The nightmare version just sounds like all the goo...The nightmare version just sounds like all the good parts of revolutionary girl utena. Vague and surreal and everyone's dueling and there lots of roses and gender-as-class; but you can multiclass and fuse with other characters and everything is brushed under the carpet because its DREAMYspikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17429845269865401908noreply@blogger.com